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 XVIII - LA LVNE - Part two

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PostSubject: XVIII - LA LVNE - Part two   Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:16 pm

1-That card is for me as I said a depiction of deceive oneself or people and or circumstances that deceive us.
The topic is very complicate because is very hard at a first glance distinguish where begin ours responsibility and or the others.
For me we all "are in the same soup" so one for me and one for you I think ...
We all are intermixed,interlinked so any relation suppose actions of both and effects FOR both.
Never I think neither of both can say "I will not pay that coffe is not mine ... "
(I expect that this expression will be understand )
One can be conscious victim of deceive or unconscious.
But finally I think ours innermost nature "attract" this persons and situations.
As to be honey for bees...

* That is why the dogs don t noticed that felt on the deceive of the moon.
So they really think that this "is the end of the world" and promptly eat the rest of life they find,but both don t realize that they were deceived by the moon. (with his deceiver face as she did not nothing...)

2-See that the rays of the sun are yellow and red.
The rays of the moon where are them ?
Why the moon has not rays and the card have it if is this a moon card?
From which are the rays if this card is not a sun eclipse ?
* Just compares with LE SOLEIL next card...

-The green ring of the moon: Is not equal to the green band of the ground where the dogs are ?
May be that the green colour is a depiction of Nature and the moon is the agent above that do the work to "incarnate" THE SPIRIT below ?
So a link between the sun as spirit and moon ?

* Is not my dear friend to "born" an example of deceive ?
-Where you come here and then find when you wake up that life is a dinner already served ?
Aside if you like it or not my friend ?
So the cause surely for me must be earlier...

3-We have three drops skin coloured falling from the sun and moon.
Why if both have not that colour ?
-See the left dog and the crab and where the crab is positioned with his legs so the colour...
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PostSubject: Re: XVIII - LA LVNE - Part two   Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:12 pm



-

1-Here we have (and I also thanks to Stella help ) three examples of my topic about this card as a sun eclipse.
a-The Cary Sheet dated around the year of 1500 and the supposed ancestor till now of the Tarot de Marseille.
b-Jean Noblet dated 1650 together with the Flornoy version you posted Stella.
c-Jean Dodal dated between 1701 and 1715

* The Cary Sheet let to me any doubt of a sun eclipse.
Is clear a moon hiding the sun.
See that the moon IS NOT AT THE CENTER hiding the sun.
For me the intention of the engraver was to let any confusion about this point.
I mean that if one put the moon at the center of the sun of course one can suppose it a moon card.
So why if not my dear ?
Why the moon is out of the center as in Noblet and Dodal ?

I am absolutely convinced that details on an image must have a purpose or have not if they are not there.
The intense visual exercise of comparison between decks helps us too much I believe when we have a card interrogation with regard to meaning topics.
The Cary Sheet is ours only reference till now as an ancestor of TdM.
So it is a necessary reference ever.


* Here is the link : http://tarotpedia.com/wiki/Image:Cary_sheet.jpg
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PostSubject: Re: XVIII - LA LVNE - Part two   Sat Sep 13, 2008 8:38 pm

1-We have two dogs:
One is skin coloured / Ours conscious life
This dog is at the left so looking to the right side so to the sequence that follows,the present-future.
That dog want to find the SUN the next card.
This dog want to EAT life-sun red drops to go ahead.
The other is pale blue as the moon is / Ours unconscious life.
Contrary this dog is looking to the left so the past as pale blue as the moon is.
This dog want to eat life-sun red drops to go to the past ENDLESS ...

2-The pale blue colour is for me a depiction of the past.
If not...
Why is it the colour of the water where the crab is ? // Why also of the moon and the dog ?
If not why the crab is HIDDEN by the water ?
* Curiously here we have the worst situation: Ours oldest past (Crab ) we did hide conscious or not under the blue pale water as the moon do here and now with the sun (Ours present)
-The pale blue coloured dog of today simply follows ours oldest unconscious...
THE CRAB.


Last edited by eugim on Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: XVIII - LA LVNE - Part two   Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:19 pm

1-Where is this crab positioned ? / On an skin-earth stone coloured : The real world so ours but as is under the water may be a depiction of ours life lived before.
-Why is hidden ?
-Why the pale blue dog (Ours recent past ) do not realized this ?
2-The crab also wants to eat red-sun drops of life but he is too tied to the past my friend...
See that he has two yellow (present colour ) stones on both sides ( recently present and now present) but he is still convinced that IS his situation.
So he is still trying to "eat" life of the sun-life from there : IMPOSSIBLE for go ahead and too dangerous.
So if he do he only will add more confusion to his situation.
3-The crab has all the colours:Red,yellow,green and skin-earth.
But he is positioned on an earth-skin-matter-body-ours day by day life colour,trying to eat life to go ahead but his middle pincers are skin-past coloured...
So his recently actions denied his attempt to eat TOO MORE LIFE until he jump out of the water,face the LIFE and try to eat life from "this side" after he "cleaned" his / ours : underworld.
I remark that he has two yellow help so on the left ( past ) and on the right ( future ) but he can not see both...

* WHY ???
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PostSubject: Re: XVIII - LA LVNE - Part two   Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:46 pm

1-Just see the tail of both dogs.
a-Left dog: Yellow // Eating life to go ahead,to live ahead.
b-Right dog: Pale blue // Eating life to go to the past endless ...
2-That is why I remarked that for me is a SUN-LIFE eclipse.

* LIFE DENIED.

3-Some people still have fear with XIII and XV.
I can not understand it my friend...
The first is my angel who clean my past when I am agree,able and conscious to accept that and XV is my " credit card debt " HERE...
-If ours friend XIII not clean the field of ours past ... /// How we can sow the present-future ?
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PostSubject: Re: XVIII - LA LVNE - Part two   Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:59 pm

1-Mirrors ?
See that video clip how people want too see what they want to see...

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=WfOLBi4s1Pc

* So how we are waiting too long at this card ???

-Yes,why ?
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PostSubject: Re: XVIII - LA LVNE - Part two   Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:46 pm

-I sent an e mail to ours specialist on the side of iconography Monsieur Yves Les Marseilles because I saw that on the Camoin 1960 "print" colour version of the mould,both dogs have the same colour.
So contrary to the decks we usually know where both dogs have different colours.

-I expect ours Inspector Maigret give to us a key for this...

1-There is another similar deck with that colour pattern ?
2-It this a simple negligence of the printer ? / May be he did not mind anything ?
3-Has it a subtle meaning or not ?
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PostSubject: Re: XVIII - LA LVNE - Part two   Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:33 pm

Hello all,

Yes it is first time both "dogs" have same color. But may be I forgot one. I have to finish printing my entire collection (60 decks) for a full reply.
This mould was anyway very tired as we can all see (look lines how wide they are).
About colors anyway, nobody is able to find two exact definition.
Furthermore significations evoluated during centuries. So...
Yves Le Marseillais
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PostSubject: Re: XVIII - LA LVNE - Part two   Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:01 pm

-Do you think that this deck has historical TdM importance ?
-How much genuine and closer is with regard to the truest Conver 1760 as you said is in a Museum of Japan ?
Of course aside and you are right,the "tired block" condition...
So how far is from the original block do you think is in terms of iconography pattern ?

For example I have Lo Scarabeo version.
Aside colours,I don t know how Lo Scarabeo House did the deck.
I mean : The "engraved line" is the same of 1760 or 1960 Camoin ?
Excuse my ignorance,but I think is a good opportunity for you to explain to us based on your knowledge,how a deck can change in nearly 350 years if not.
Than not only for Conver (is only an example) so by extension for others decks...

*For example:An original deck suppose Conver or Noblet or Dodal ...
Each one in his time.
How many wood blocks in rotation do you suppose were ?
To be clear (my english is the worst my friend)
How many original wood block were in 1760 of Conver when he (or who was) did the deck ?
If many...
Is there any evidence of how much survived till now ?

Sorry for many questions !

Ça ira !
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PostSubject: Re: XVIII - LA LVNE - Part two   Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:57 pm

Returning to Noblet card,I close here this card with for me a detail of importance that is a somewhat summary of the meaning of the card.

1-I said that this card for me is a depiction of deceive.
Did by others,by ourselves for ourselves or for others.
There are many combinations if we add conscious or unconscious topic...
The image depiction is the moon NOT center in the sun which hide it (the life)
That is why I think is a sun eclipse.
So what depict the moon ?
OURS PAST
OURS PRESENT that we can not face.
Present conditioned by ours past not faced.
Both hide the sun of life.
2-We have two dogs:
a-Left skin-earth-incarnated coloured : Ours HERE
b-Right pale blue coloured as the moon is.

* If we are agree that there is a sequence,the left dog WILL NOT let to go ahead to meet the next card (precisely LE SOLEIL ) (The Sun-life denied here) if he before don t FACE his past and present not faced.
His "shadow" that he after many times of denied it he can t see and think that is someone who try to hurt him,that very huge shadow that has the weigh of the degree of his past negative,will never let him go ahead to meet the sun...
So first ours dear dog must "clean the sun of his life" if he want to go ahead.

-Why a dog and not a human person here ?
Because I think the Tarot de Marseilles Artists want to drive ours attention precisely to this:
Dog: Ours instincts,ours old habits the side of us that is too hard too change and increase ours "credit card of life"
Shadow over shadow...

Day by day...

-That is why don t let us to meet next card baby...

3-This is the third card of the last row.
If you see all the previous third card have the same critical degree. III - VIII - XIII
All are efforts to meet the next card that will HELP us to find the bridge of : V - X - XV - XX

-Au revoir mon ami...
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PostSubject: Re: XVIII - LA LVNE - Part two   Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:12 pm

A lot of people seem to think that the head of the dog on the left-hand side of the Conver La Lune is rabbit-shaped. Jodorowsky "corrected" this and gave him a more conventional dog's head, but sometimes I wonder.

Was it purposeful? (Conver seemed to have a pretty sure hand when he wanted to.) And if so, is it really supposed to resemble a rabbit, or a certain type of dog? Were bull terriers around then? Bedlingtons?

Or is it just a not-so-well-done dog? Questions, questions....

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PostSubject: Re: XVIII - LA LVNE - Part two   Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:32 pm

Hello Stella !
-I really missed your posts this week...

1-Even if I think is best that Yves replay your post thanks to his historical knowledge about Tarot de Marseille,I think my friend that both are two dogs.
Having in mind this:
a-It is an engraving not done with a realistic way (As Albrecht Dürer did for example)
It is a visual allegory of the dogs.A visual artistic depiction as the rest of the cards.
As Picasso would did them...
b-See the moon: Has a face as a visual allegory of the moon.The moon has not face.
So the left dog is not rabbit - shaped I think.It is a dog and the bull terriers must sit and wait a long my friend...

2-All the "engrave line" has sense in the context of the card and "fit" with artistic sense.
I mean: We don t have a dog realistic done and a moon without a face.

3-With regard to Jodorowsky I think that along with Camoin with the history of the egg ...
What can I say ?
That both are liars merchants...
Yves can say too much of this sustained on an iconographic historical point of view.
"La Vie du Tarot " of Jodorowsky is for me the worst book I read.
I lost my money because this book is not cheap as must is.
Cheap knowledge ...

4-This is a version of 1960 so before the Jodo-Camoin version.

5-I attached here the version of 1760 I have and surely Yves could tell to us if it is genuine or not.
If not I hope he has the "truest" and show it here...
I obtained this from a japanese member of ATF that has a site.



6-Now see that both dog here are coloured inverted with regard to Noblet:
The pale-moon coloured dog is at the left and the skin-brown dog at the right.
So different meanings surely ...

* The decks "called" TdM 2 have always the face of the moon looking at the left,so I can not suppose that this is an example of an "inverted" card,so both dogs are placed and coloured as both are my friend.
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PostSubject: Re: XVIII - LA LVNE - Part two   Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:09 pm

1-I think that more than if one is not a dog at all,is that is an animal so not a person.
Conver,Noblet,Dodal followed an image pattern tradition.
2-Animal card depiction = Ours Animal side after all ...
The side of ours nature we can not "domesticate " at all my friend.
Physically,emotionally and mental understand it.
3-The moon ours shadow inside us hides all...
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PostSubject: Re: XVIII - LA LVNE - Part two   Sat Sep 20, 2008 6:39 pm

What's interesting is, we actually have three brains.

A reptile brain for fight-or-flight, breathing, basic survival.

Kind of wrapped around that is a "dog brain". We use it to form packs and care for our young.

And the frontal cortex, that we use to write about this other stuff.

Something to think about when looking at this card, which was somehow made very much ahead of it's time. pirat Of course a crawfish is not a reptile, but I think the brain function must be pretty similar. Pretty good for 1650!

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PostSubject: Re: XVIII - LA LVNE - Part two   Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:58 am

eugim wrote:

For example I have Lo Scarabeo version.
Aside colours,I don t know how Lo Scarabeo House did the deck.
I mean : The "engraved line" is the same of 1760 or 1960 Camoin ?

I have one of those. Lo Scarabeo tampered with it quite a bit.

If you put it next to a Héron or any of the others, you can see that the images have been "squashed" to make a longer, narrower deck. The Coins look slightly flattened on the sides. Some of the flowers on the Batons are incorrect - if I remember correctly, the flowers on the VI Baton were lifted from another card.

LS can be somewhat untrustworthy in these manners. :tfh

Quote :

Ça ira !


CA IRA! pirat

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PostSubject: Re: XVIII - LA LVNE - Part two   Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:50 pm

-Many thanks Stella...
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PostSubject: Re: XVIII - LA LVNE - Part two   Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:25 pm

Good to see you back, Miguel! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: XVIII - LA LVNE - Part two   Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:03 pm

Thanks...

-I found an example of the meaning of this card (for me deceive done by others and self deceive) as I said earlier,on a film:
The Truman Show.
All the reality of the main character Truman,is a deceive...
But when he begin to notice that,he work to find the exit.
He defied the storm because he decided to break this deceive.
He discovered that the sky wasn t real,his whole reality wasn t.
So that is for me a good example of the link between LA LVNE and LE SOLEIL.
The key for go ahead on the sequence: To wake up and find the Sun as a depiction of life choose by ourselves.
So life found by ourselves.
Must be remember that in the film at the end the director try to keep him back to the foreseeable life created for Truman but he refused.
Because the price for that as he learned was the self deceive.
(I regret not have better english for explain deeper thoughts about the meaning of this film with regard to this card)
And here the end of the film...

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=zBu9l_EKWVs
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PostSubject: Re: XVIII - LA LVNE - Part two   Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:36 pm

eugim wrote:
Thanks...

-I found an example of the meaning of this card (for me deceive done by others and self deceive) as I said earlier,on a film:
The Truman Show.

Amazing example!
There are Tarot revelations in everything - Jim Carrey movies included. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: XVIII - LA LVNE - Part two   Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:55 pm

-Yes as simple as this: The Sun (LE SOLEIL) always rise after the storm,never before.
If not .
Why,for what the storm ?

1-Water = LA LVNE = Astral plane = Kama Loka
Fire= LE SOLEIL=Buddhi plane = Where we meet ours Souls.

*Where then we begin to understand that the sum of all Souls are one = LE MONDE / The Anima Mundi

2- I only have three cards ahead to conclude this trip.
I tried to not have a previous speach of each one card.
I tried to simply watch each one as the first time.
And then discovered that this is the best way.
Watch all as a new brand pocket of cigarretttes...
Colours,form,size et cetera...
I know that my english is the worst here my friend,but I expect been clear here or there.

-Well...
So the last cards are:

XVIIII - LE SOLEIL
XX - LE IVGEMENT / The last bridge,now to the end...

XXI - LE MONDE / Where all of us meet together at the same time,even if we don t know or recognize or don t mind.
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PostSubject: Re: XVIII - LA LVNE - Part two   Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:12 pm

WARM MAH COCKLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

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