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PostSubject: XX- LE IVGEMENT   Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:46 pm

-Here Noblet is too very clear here just for me.
This is the judgement of the Church,so not of us.
Is not the figure at the middle has a tonsure as the acolytes of V card ?

* By extension for us is the judgement for all we promised far ago and never sustained,and now the Angel comes...
The Angel of ours Souls.
Have in mind that if we want to reach the next card,the last,first we will accept this.
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PostSubject: Re: XX- LE IVGEMENT   Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:00 pm

-But the Angel is judging the acolyte so not the Pope ...

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PostSubject: Re: XX- LE IVGEMENT   Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:53 pm

1-Another reading could be that we are this acolyte and the angel comes to wake up us from death in life.
We were leaving death in life for a long time found again the light of life at LE SOLEIL so the angel wake up us for live ahead ALIVE.
I think it is very interesting the pale brown (skin colour depiction just for me) that show the angel in his wings and body(excepts his face and hands )
May be a depiction of ours Souls as an angel incarnated in us.
Have not the three figures of the card the pale brown colour as a depiction of skin ?
(I found this detail only also at Vieville and Camoin edition of the 1960 bicentennial)
Here Vieville example :

I say this because at another decks as Dodal,Conver or Chosson the central figure is pale blue as a depiction of a man who was death.
So here at Noblet card I see a depiction of a man alive who always was alive but death in divine conscience and now is awakening to it by the angel (his Soul)

2-The pair female-male outside from the tomb could be a depiction of the humanity already awakened or the humanity that pray for that.
As the central figure has not details to suppose his gender,one could be free to think that is the humanity as one and may be this is the desire of the both that are praying.
Another reading could be from an alchemical point of view.
The central figure is the result of the last stage of the Opus (alchemical work) where and when ours innermost duality is resolved in the divine androgynous as he was before the fallen in the matter ( the whole humanity).
He found his Soul at XVIIII and here is waked up by the angel as a depiction of his Soul.
An angel incarnated as we see in his body and parts of his wings depicted with skin-pale brown,as the body of the rest of the figures.
See that the angel has uncoloured hands as celestial action,and both figures have brown hands as earthly actions.
But all has uncoloured faces:Celestial origin.
And all have yellow hair :Celestial connection between them.(See the yellow on the wings of the Angel)

3-This central tonsured figure could be the same of one of the figures at V card,that chose divine love instead human love at VI,began a trip to find it (his Soul) at VII,found her at XVIIII and here is awakened by her to return to her at LE MONDE as a depiction of the Soul of the world (the Anima Mundi)
He is the fallen angel ( the whole humanity) in the matter returning form a long trip depicted by the 21 card sequence.
The Divine Spirit incarnated in the matter helped by the Soul as an agent between the Spirit and the matter.
That is why I remark that this angel is depicted as incarnated (HERE) as show his body but acting here from a celestial place (uncoloured hands).
This celestial "place" is here but in ours innermost side.
And there takes place the "connection" with ours Soul.
As I said we have celestial origin (uncoloured faces as the angel) but acting here (pale brown hands)
When the connection with ours Soul is done we begin to help her acting here as her agents.
The purpose?

* The return of the Spirit to its origin :LE MONDE

4-Is very interesting I think the colour of the flag.
I understand the flag as the " origin " of the message that the trumpet do.
Is the angel flag so has a celestial origin but has also skin-brown colour so earthly.
Another element to suppose this angel as ours Soul incarnated as a link between ours Spirit and matter.
Also has celestial yellow as the hairs I said and divine blue as the "halo" the angel has.
So for me this is clearly a message that depicts the meet between ours Spirit and ours matter (body),and the angel ours Souls as an agent.

5-That is why I think,ending with my trip along the 21 cards,that may be one must think that really this trip is through 20 cards,beginning at LE BATELEVR and ending here.
Because I understand LE MONDE as a conclusion
Regarding to LE MAT (The Spirit One) has no place because he has no number,he is anywhere at once.
So that could be explain why the sequence has a V-X-XV-XX pattern. (Yes,somewhat as a clock: turning)
So why we have not the IIII card as IV for example and so on...
And that is why I named the XV thread as : V + ^ + V
So cross the two X of this card and you have this :

* So the vertical X as God action (V) here (^) (Yes,Mason and Solomon star parallel here) and the horizontal X as a depiction of this connection evolving : The Swastika on a Buddhist right turning (so not the distorted nazi involution example) or ours western Templar example (that meaning that the western Christian Church lost forever ... )

6-Yes,my dear Stella...
The same pattern of cross as we can see at the DENIERS cards:

-And that is why I think that DENIERS depicts the Spirit in the matter as show the VALET DE DENIERS :

-It is very interesting not here in Noblet deck,but on the others historical decks DENIERS is the only in plural ...
The One Spirit in many at once ?
Is not this valet showing this DENIERS also as a Sun ?

* So is in the sky as in the earth ?
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PostSubject: Re: XX- LE IVGEMENT   Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:37 pm

-So after I said all this...
1-It this really a judgement ? / Of whom ?
a-Of the Church.
b-Of the acolyte:The human being that chose to find his Soul instead this world.
c-Of the humanity.(So of us )

* Answer: Of all at once.

2-What is a judgement ? / Which its purpose ?
May be VIII card IVSTICE has the answer: To WEIGH ours Souls (Yes,as in Egypt) to see if we have "the necessary weight" to enter at LE MONDE without damage.
If not we will not simply be there...

3-So here at this card really the Angel wake up us because HE KNOWS we ready "TO JUMP" to the last card.
If not,he never will do that...
We will still death but alive till next trumpet advice my friend...
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PostSubject: Re: XX- LE IVGEMENT   Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:35 pm

-For me the key to understand the intentional iconography purpose of each detail of a card of the whole Tarot de Marseilles it is summarized in this card :
VALET DE DENIER : The Sun Spirit under the grown and the the Sun Spirit above.
Macrocosmos and Microcosmos together at the same time.

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PostSubject: Re: XX- LE IVGEMENT   Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:58 pm

1-What I see at the center of de DENIER ? : A Templar Cross so a Sun depiction.

2-So the Spirit of the Sun is above and below at the same time.
Sun by extension as a depiction of God.

* All in All
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PostSubject: Re: XX- LE IVGEMENT   Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:44 pm

1-This is for me a wonderful example about the topic of colour related to the iconography of TdM.
First I don t see a white element or detail of a card coloured as white,I understand it as uncoloured.
So I understand a white portion of a card as untouched.
There is a difference I think.
This suppose that all elements of the whole 22 cards that are coloured depict a situation that happen HERE on a material point of view.

a-Here the angel and the other two figures have uncoloured faces as the sky= Divine connection
Angel uncoloured / Divine action
Human figures coloured / Human action
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PostSubject: Re: XX- LE IVGEMENT   Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:42 am


This is great stuff! XX I've studied, I see it as a kind of Western way of saying "'Void is Form, Form is Void', - are you ready to merge with the Angel? Are you aware that you already have?" But the Valet I've mostly taken as a waffling kid who doesn't keep his eye on his money. I guess he fooled me! cat You've given us a lot to think about here. Thanks!

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PostSubject: Re: XX- LE IVGEMENT   Sat Nov 01, 2008 10:17 am

1-It is also very curious that Vieville LE SOLEIL card shows a red cross painted on the back of the horse.
I mean linking this with a Sun depiction of the DENIERS as I see of course,related to the cross as we saw on them...

-So "if this works" once can suppose why usually the DENIERS is assumed as a depiction of earth.
That is literally a Sun (Spirit) buried in the matter,fallen in the matter.
So God incarnated = The Universe / Earth = DENIERS

2-So returning to the XX card one can see the cross on the trumpet banner.
This is a divine cross (God/Sun/Spirit incarnated)
The man in the middle waked up could be also a depiction,a parallel of the Sun -Spirit buried in the matter that now has finished his trip and can return to his origin =LE MONDE

* This man of course is a depiction of the Universe returning to its origin (God/Sun/Spirit) as well as a depiction of all of us.
Macro and microcosmos together.

3-So finishing this card for me it is a depiction of a wake up,of a work well and entirely done.
Here and not before we gained the right to enter at LE MONDE as a conclusion of the whole trip.

That is why I consider my dear Estelita,that the sequence is from LE BATELVR to LE IVGEMENT,so from I to XX.

So that explains the X (A cross ) pattern of the structure of TdM :
(We don t have IV we have IIII )

V - X - XV - XX

The X pattern is compounded by to V :
V : A descending energy
^ : An ascending energy

Like the Mason emblem:


Must to be say that here express the same but reversed. ( ^ as V)
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PostSubject: Re: XX- LE IVGEMENT   Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:02 pm

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